Magic dust and more: Reflections with Love Barrow Families

[Introduction] 

This is a Research in Practice podcast, supporting evidence-informed practice with children and families, young people and adults.  

Julie: Hi, and welcome to this Research in Practice podcast. I'm Julie Wilkinson and today, I'm joined by Wayne and Diane, who are going to speak about their experiences of working with Love Barrow Families. This podcast follows on from a previous podcast with Trina Robson, one of the directors of Love Barrow Families, and she's also here today.  Diane and Wayne joined Trina at the Children and Families Partnership conference and they talk passionately about how Love Barrow Families has supported and helped them over a number of years. So, I'm really looking forward to speaking to them and finding out more about this. So, welcome, Wayne, Diane and Trina, it's lovely to have you all here. First of all, before we hear more about you and from you, would you like to introduce yourself? Maybe starting with you, Diane.  

Diane: So, I'm Diane and I live in Barrow, and I started Love Barrow Families in 2014.  

Julie: Okay, great, we'll hear more from you in a moment. Wayne, if you could introduce yourself, please?  

Wayne: Hi, I’m Wayne, here as part of Love Barrow Families, and I'm here to do the podcast today.  

Julie: That's great, and lovely to have you here, Wayne, and finally, Trina.  

Trina: Yes, hiya, so I'm Trina Robson. I set up Love Barrow Families in 2013 with my colleague Alison Tooby. I'm a social worker. I've worked as a foster parent. I worked as a social worker in child protection for a number of years. Also worked for the NSPCC (National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children) and in the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service. And, I guess, decided that we wanted to do something different and set up Love Barrow Families to do that. And, finally, I'm from Barrow as well. I was born in Barrow and brought up in Barrow.  

[Starting to work with Love Barrow Families] 

Julie: Great, delighted to have the three of you here today. So, if I could start with you, Diane. I think you were one of the first people to work with Love Barrow Families. So, can you take us back to the time when you first started working with Trina and others and how that came about?  

Diane: So, it was a social worker who I didn't get along with, told me that I was going to Love Barrow Families, so I didn't really have a choice, so I was a bit pessimistic what Love Barrow Families was going to do and be how it said it was. When I first came to Love Barrow Families I didn't actually talk to nobody apart from my kids, so my children were the only people I would communicate with. I was told by Alison Tooby the very first time I'd met her, that if I was 100% honest with her, she would be 100% honest with me. This made me feel a little bit like, 'Okay, you're a social worker telling me that if I'm honest with you, you're going to be honest with me,' that's not what I'd experienced in the past, and found that quite difficult to accept.  

I did a lot of work with Trina, like one-to-one counselling work, to work on me and to work on the stuff that from my past that was affecting how I was parenting my children, and it was obviously keeping me in a depressed state. And I remember Trina saying to me that, 'We are equal', so just because Trina's a social worker that doesn't matter because we are equal because at the end of the day we're only human, and that made me feel a little bit more relaxed. I liked the fact that I could be honest and when I say something it wasn't judged. So, if I was having a bad day with the children and I turned round and was like, 'I could just kill them kids right now,' all parents say it, but you say it to a social worker you'll have your children removed. If you say it to Trina, she knows you don't mean it, she knows you're just letting that frustration inside you out and I think all social workers should be a bit more kinder and not judge straight away, learn about the family, learn about the parents. And just kind of understand that parents will say things out of frustration, but they don't actually mean it. So that was good. So that did help me because I used to get frustrated quite a lot with my kids.  

So that helped that I could be honest in my counselling sessions with Trina I could scream, I could shout, I could cry, I could swear, everything, and the help was there. If I wanted help there and then I didn't have to wait three days for a social worker to phone me back I got that help there and then, it was like when the help was needed, it was there. So, if I'd ran out of electric all I had to do was phone someone and just admit that I'd ran out of electric. I didn't have to suffer. Because, a lot of the time before I came to Love Barrow Families, I used to starve myself so I could feed the kids and stuff like that because I didn't want to say to people that I was struggling, but Love Barrow Families were there so you didn't have to struggle.  

Julie: That's great, that's really interesting and I'm sure there's lots of things that I'm going to pick up on in what you're saying, but before we do that if I could now ask you, Wayne, about your first experiences of working with Love Barrow Families and how that came about?  

Wayne: Well, to have had times with services throughout my whole life I've never been treated so different. The first time I met them, obviously, not one service had ever made a move to come forward to actually try and help me, so they made the first steps by actually coming to a prison and seeing me in jail, so that's not normal. That's not what services do. So to actually see that happening I thought, 'This is different,' I was asked, 'Do you want to come a part of the test pilot scheme,' and I said, 'Yes, definitely,' because there was an opportunity for me to be a dad to my children without being put back in prison, because that was a volatile relationship, that was there with three children and my ex-partner.  

So, obviously, as they've come into prison they've given me an option to leave prison and go work with them, to be in a safe environment for my kids to have proper contacts, me to actually be a dad for once to my children in these contacts. I've got a new boy, little boy, in my life, he's a year old now, social services were involved and now, obviously, I've proven that I'm a new person in myself, so now they're not on my case and I'm actually living as a normal person with my child and then my lady at home. So, yes, it's nice to be able to be a normal person living with a child at home and not being judged as I used to be.  

Julie: That's great, so now you are the dad.  

Wayne: Yes.  

Julie: And you have your child at home, so that must feel amazing.  

Wayne: It's different because I never got the opportunity to be a dad to the other three from that age, so I'm doing everything that I never got to do with my other three because I was in and out of prison, so it's new to me. I'm not going to say it's easy, it's hard, but I'm enjoying it. I'm being a family, finally living my life, and being a family, it's something that I've always wanted all my life. So, yes basically that was first time I met them in jail, and when I got out the first time I met them, obviously, on the outside was in the new building just off Abbey Road. So, it was like when I went there it was new to me to be a part of the service, and being accepted as a person, which was very difficult for me at first because I didn't understand why I was been accepted from these individuals that had just come out of nowhere, so yes, it's nice to be accepted and brought into a new scheme.  

[First impressions of Love barrow Families] 

Julie: Yes, so although you had different experiences a lot of what you're saying of when you started working with Love Barrow Families is about this feeling of being accepted and being able to feel, and feeling that you're able to be honest and open with the people, for example, Trina, that you're working with would you say that that kind of sums up what was at the core of your first impressions?  

Wayne: Yes, well, the main thing that I got from Trina and Alison was the fact that I was invited to be a part of something that was new to the town, and obviously, my kids were already involved while I was in prison for a short period, I think, was it? Yes, and then obviously, the fact that they were willing going to work with someone with such a bad background that was labelled all my life, so to not have that label still on me as a person and actually treated as a normal person on the street even in whatever situation, even though they'd read the paperwork that had underlined me as a very violent man. Love Barrow Families accepted me, took me on as a normal criteria of a person, you know, where I could be part of something, yes.  

Julie: That's great, and it, kind of, takes you beyond the, as you say, Love Barrow Families just supporting you, but everybody else being a support for everybody else, and making those connections, and getting to know new people, and everything like that.  

Trina: Yes, part of that first interaction that these two have talked about, isn't it? That if you remember that we all have assets, and gifts, and things to share, even when people have been in prison for ten years, or whatever, or whatever else has happened, then in a way that's one of the answers, isn't it? That in this world that we're in where figures are going up, and things are very expensive, and it's actually more efficient. If we listen to what people like Diane and Wayne have got to say, then it makes our job easier, and saves resources as well.  

Diane: You always can help other families as well. I think that's another thing that if there were more families helping families, then there'd be less need for Children's Services. I did say that dead quietly, because I know social workers will be listening to it, and they'll be, like, 'That's our job.' I do think that families can help other families, and I think it's a good thing that that happens.  

Trina: That is one of the reasons why Love Barrow Together exists, to try and do some of that.  

[The importance of kindness] 

Julie: Yes. So, I'm interested, Diane, going back to you, you talked about them being kinder, and the importance of that kindness. So, can you give me some examples of what Love Barrow Families did to show that kindness?  

Diane: Just giving you the time of day to speak really. It was literally just they were there. So, it didn't matter if you wanted to scream and shout, you could just scream and shout. You could be yourself. I mean, they also did activities in the holidays to entertain the children. One thing that really sticks out for me is my middle child-, so I've got three children, my eldest is a girl and then I've got two boys, well my middle child he got taken on a Section 20 for nine months. Love Barrow Families supported me so much in getting him back home. I fought, and fought, and fought, and I didn't give up. They were always there. They were there to support me. They helped me with social worker meetings. I got given a family support worker who is still involved with me today, like, now. She's still somebody that I go to if I'm worried about something, or I need help. It was just the compassion that they give you, like, they really just don't judge you. They do make you feel safe. I feel 110% safe with Trina, because I feel like she understands, and she doesn't judge me. When a social worker comes to your house they judge you, and I think for me that triggers my anxieties. When a social worker comes to the door and they've got a badge around their neck, that really, really-, I won't open the door to them because that scares me. They're letting my whole street know who they are, you know, they're a social worker.  

Trina: Can I just add something? I was thinking back to the early days, and your question about kindness. When we first started we had just one room in a school, and we were offered that room because we knew the headteacher. So, she gave us the room free of charge. One of the things that we tried to do was work with the parents that had a relationship with that headteacher, and Diane was one of those parents. So, I think in terms of coming into the school, and feeling the kindness, that was already there, if you like, because of the relationship that Diane had had with the headteacher. The other thing that I wanted to say as well, is the kindness thing works two ways. I think that we've found that families are kind. Families can be very kind, and often organisations are not. So, I know that if you go to a case conference you don't always get offered a cup of tea, for example. Those simple things I think that we tried quite hard to do, because my experience as a social worker is families have always offered me a cup of tea when I've got into their home.  

Julie: Yes, I think that's an important point, and Diane, you talked about the fact that they gave you practical support if you'd run out of money for electricity. Obviously, you had emotional support as well. So, Wayne, I wonder if you want to come in on any of those points?  

Wayne: Well, basically, when I went to Love Barrow Families I wasn't very confident in myself as a person. So, as a structure, like, Love Barrow Families puts structure into my life as an actual person, because I didn't have no structure, which that was the main thing that I'd never had. So, being in touch with people was me adapting to new ways of living my life, because I've always been in a downward spiral. With Love Barrow Families around me it was being pushed on to me in a good way that I could be a better person, I had opportunities around me, I could start working with people, talking to people. It's picking up on new things that I'd never been around. So, it's, like, it was an opportunity for me to be in some, sort of, fashion like in a school again to get taught again by people that actually wanted to teach me how to be as a person, 'This is the right way.' Showing how to actually be as a person. Just something that I actually picked up on one of the sheets that I was reading on the way from Middleham today, 'Love Barrow Families shows you the right way to do things rather than punish you for the wrong things'. So, that's on one of the sheets that I've got from a conference. It's just definitely that itself. Do you know what I mean? It's being shown how to live your life than leaving you to be the way you've been.  

[How Love barrow Families has helped] 

Julie: So, it's like doing all of those things. You said in that that you'd started to do new things as well, you know, without that structure, and having people around you. So, can you give me any examples of some of those new things that you went on to do?  

Wayne: Yes, just taking part, obviously, being a part of Love Barrow Families. I started off slowly. As it went on it developed more. Obviously, it started off as obviously seeing my kids in positive contacts, and then obviously I started getting involved doing their courses like mindfulness, because I was struggling to go and see my kids. So, I was being advised how to deal with that situation on the trains, because I was anxious, and stuff like that. I was put in charge, basically, of trying to help fundraise and stuff, and obviously, started doing bits of weeding out the back, cleaning around the property and stuff when they moved buildings. Doing window cleaning jobs. Just basically anything I felt I could be use of, I was putting my hands to it, or putting my mind to it through obviously the Love Barrow service.  

Julie: How did that make you feel as you started to do all of those kinds of things?  

Wayne: I was finding out who I actually was. I wasn't this person that I'd been labelled. I'd been told throughout my life that I had bad mental health. I see that now as I was labelled. I've got no problems with me now, and I'm not on medication. I haven't been on medication for over six years. So, the truth is that you're labelled as that person, and you feel like you're that person. So, when I found out that I wasn't I started to realise that I had opportunities, and things to actually start being a part of. It was like Love Barrow Families became my family. That's the whole truth there, because I had someone to go to, someone to rely on, someone to give me advice when I needed it.  

Julie: That's very powerful, actually, you being like a family, and someone that you can go to.  

Wayne: The main reason I will say that they're my family like that, because my mam's in Spain. I have got family in Barrow, but I don't really have anything to do with them. So, it's the fact that I made Love Barrow Families my family. That's how it felt.  

Trina: Yes, I just wanted to jump in to mention that I feel a little bit like sometimes we come across as though everything's positive. There are lots of positives, but I think one of the things that we all knew when we set off, Wayne, Diane, their families, and the staff team, was that it was going to be hard work. Diane's got her own history, and, you know, Wayne's as well. So, Love Barrow Families was about taking families who had got really quite complex histories, and difficulties, and face lots of disadvantages as well in many ways. So, we wanted to make sure that there was a really good understanding, and we used the adult attachment interview, and with both Wayne and Diane, I think that was really important, because it was a shared experience for us. It gave us a way of working out what needed to happen to change, and some of those things were practical things. So, Wayne would sometimes boil up. You'd talk about having a kettle inside. So, we used to try and find ways of repairing relationships if that happened. So, it was just I didn't want it sound as though we didn't get that understanding, that it was an understanding that was a proper evidence-based assessment, I guess, but it was a valuable experience. I mean, these two can speak for themselves. It was a valuable experience for all of us, I think.  

Diane: I just thought when Wayne turned round and said about the family bit was I actually in my counselling sessions with Trina used to, like, be able to connect and do it through music. One of the songs that I actually went to Trina with, and was, like, 'This is Love Barrow Families,' it was from Ice Age 4 I think, and it's the We Are Family. That to me was, like, yes, because the lyrics were just perfect, you know. We are all different. We're not all the same. Myself and Wayne have come from totally different backgrounds. The only thing that we do have in common is, 1) we've been treated awfully by Children's Services, and 2) we've found help and support, love, kindness, and compassion from people in Love Barrow Families. And we've both been able to give back.  

[Adult Attachment Interview] 

Julie: So, Trina said that about the adult attachment interview, and that you'd both been part of that. So, Diane, do you just want to explain how that felt for you, and then I'll ask the same to you, Wayne.  

Diane: The adult attachment interview, when I went to do that with Trina that scared me. I actually was sat in the room, my hood up on my coat. My coat was zipped, my head was down, and my arms were folded. I think that must have been the most difficult conversation that me and Trina have actually had. Must have been really hard for Trina. I actually now think it must have been like pulling teeth for her, because it was hard work, because I didn't really say a great deal. I was struggling to express my thoughts and feelings, but I did it, and it helped me understand my children as well. So, I always thought one of my children was the bad child, like, it was all their fault. They were the bad child. They were the ones that were making me wrong. What I actually learned was actually that that child is like me. That child is the male version of me, and that actually we are too much alike. I even say that to him now. I always go to him, 'Do you know what? We're just too much alike, we're too alike. I understand you so much, but please just give me space if I need it,' but we both understand that. So, we both know when the other person wants space. We know when the other person needs attention, and stuff like that. I think that is because we are so in tune with each other. It made me understand him a lot more, didn't it? It really, really did help.  

So, the adult attachment interview, it helped me change bits about me, because I was always there, I used to say to Trina, 'I'm just a shell,' like, there was nothing inside me. I was just a shell. I think after doing the adult attachment interview, and after doing all the therapy work with Trina, and then doing the family therapy sessions as well. So, it wasn't just about me doing therapy, the children did therapy. My youngest son used to go and see a play therapist every week. My other two children were able to go to Alison whenever they needed anything. If they needed anything, or they wanted to talk about anything, they could go to Alison, because Alison was their social worker. There was just no judging. To me, I know I say it quite a lot, like, that's something I would love to see change in Children's Services. I would love for social workers not to judge people, because when a social worker judges you, for me it triggers my anxiety and my depression. So, if that's what it's like for me, I'd hate to think what it's like for other people.  

Wayne: It's going back quite a bit, to be honest. I can't really remember that much of it, but I do know that it identified key issues. Trina helped me work around those key issues, and start to guide me, and direct me in the right direction from those bad issues that would start to target. It basically just gives you an outcome of obviously what needs to be sorted, and what might need to be helped with, isn't it? So, obviously, everything that came out of it's been sorted through Love Barrow Families now. So, I'd love to sit and do one again, like we've said we're going to do, to see what the difference is.  

Julie: Yes. Did you find it quite difficult when you started on that process of doing the adult attachment interview, or did it just seem like a natural progression, a next step?  

Wayne: I've always been a bit of a talker, but obviously, yes, it would have been a bit thingy, because I've entrapped myself in my past. Past, obviously, abuses and stuff like that, I've destroyed my own self through my own past abuse. Like you say, the attachment helped identify key issues, and I went to counselling. Started to see people that I needed to see through that. Obviously, that's ended up getting a line drawn underneath it, and I don't even have a problem with my past anymore, proving that it's identified things that needed to be identified through the adult attachment.  

[What has changed in their lives?] 

Julie: So, Wayne what would you say has really changed for you over the years? I mean, obviously, at the time you started working with Love Barrow Families there would have been changes, and that's gradually gone on over time.  

Wayne: One main thing I will say, I was a criminal. Now I'm a businessman. I help vulnerable people who can't do gardening anymore. I specifically aim for the elderly who have got disabilities, problems, chronic illnesses, just so that I know that I'm satisfying them after I've finished my jobs. Basically, I'm moving forward with church and stuff like that. I've built up a new reputation of my own self, who I am, of who I needed to be as a person. To believe it or not, I'm actually living in the town where the prison was where I used to go every year, and I actually bump into all the prison staff every other day, and I actually do their gardens now. So, it's being able to relate to them now, and show them where I am, and they're actually all proud of me, because every time I went there they all thought that I'd be back every time. So, yes, I've moved on leaps and bounds from where I was. Like I say, I'm a businessman now. I'm not a criminal. So, just says it all, to be honest.  

Julie: That's great. That's great to hear. What about your hopes for the future, where are you hoping to develop in the future?  

Wayne: I want to change services. I do. I want to make sure that people don't get treated the way I've been treated, and still to this day being treated very wrongly. My kids are in care. I go and see them quite often. I don't feel that the social services have got the contacts right. An hour is not enough for three children. Yes, I'm busy trying to find out what's going on with that as well at the moment. So, it's still going on behind closed doors. Do you know what I mean?  

Julie: So, for you, what would they need to do to make that time with your children better, for you and for them?  

Wayne: Being more time, and obviously, going and doing something with them, instead of being put in a contact centre without any true reason for why I'm there. They don't actually give me any legitimate reason for why I'm in a contact centre apart from the last time I heard it was because of the mother's behaviour. So, it's, like, why should someone be treated because of somebody else's behaviour that way?  

Julie: So, you'd like to spend more time with them outside of the contact centre?  

Wayne: Yes, definitely, yes.  

Julie: For you, Diane, how about you in terms of your life now compared to what it was before Love Barrow Families?  

Diane: It's completely different. I talk. Now I'm a lot more talkative, as you can tell. A bit nervous today, but talkative. I like to help people, like, I actually now have dreams of what I want to do in the future, and stuff. I don't have any social worker involvement with me, and that's a good thing, and I feel so proud of that. The last social worker I had was only with me because my child wouldn't go to school. He turned around and said, 'You don't need me. I've got to go. My manager's saying I've got to go.' I'm, like, 'But, no, I don't want you to go, because if you go then other services are going to say I'm not engaging.' He turned around and he said, 'You don't need me. My manager's saying I've got to close your case,' and he went, and I've not had a social worker since. That's been a long time. So, I am actually proud of that. I, kind of, help people now. So, I did voluntary work for Love Barrow Families and then I got a part-time job with Love Barrow Families. I actually left Love Barrow Families in March to go and work somewhere else to spread my magic dust, I think, and just give people an opportunity to speak, and I love it, I love helping people.  

[Magic dust] 

Julie: That's great. So, you mentioned there about the magic dust, and it is very famous wording for Love Barrow Families, so would one of you like to explain what you mean by the magic dust?  

Diane: Trina explained that, she explains it perfect.  

Trina: Well, the magic dust idea came from one of my experiences actually with my foster daughter, who was in a psychiatric unit. I'd been quite shocked really that adult mental health locally were not as supportive as I thought they were going to be. We just happened to get someone who was training as a psychiatrist who started to chair the ward rounds. I came out one day and said to my friend, 'It felt like there was magic dust in that room today.' I look after my ex-foster daughter's daughter, and a few years later it was her birthday. She was six I think. She hadn't heard anything from her mum for a while, and her mum hadn't been in touch with her. When we got up in the morning the phone was flashing, and when we pressed play it was her mum singing ‘Happy Birthday’ to her down the phone, which hadn't happened before. I just remember thinking, 'That's the magic dust still working.' So, for me there was something about once magic dust is sprinkled you're kind of not in control of it anymore and it just goes off and works in different directions. That was one of the reasons why we set up Love Barrow Families, was because of that. I think it's felt like-, I mean, these two can speak for themselves, but the magic dust has spread to, well, certainly the families and then they're spreading it in their own ways as well.  

Julie: Yes. Wayne, do you want to come in and explain what that feels like for you?  

Wayne: Yes. Well, every time I meet someone through my work, even obviously people I've had on for four years through my job, it's the fact that I spread the magic dust every time I speak to people because of the way I am. I feel so good when I walk away from people's houses because they're smiling, they're happy, and it's the fact of just talking to someone can make their day, you know? So, just by standing and having a five minute conversation, going out of my way to have that conversation spreads my magic dust every time I do it. Also we spread it through presentations and the talks that we do. Obviously when we go to conferences and stuff like that that's another place that you spread it.  

Julie: It can be as simple as that, can't it? Having those conversations with people and listening to them and taking an interest in them.  

Diane So, we've been to London, we've been to Camden, Sheffield. Yes, we've had people from America come over here and us talk to them. So, it's also spreading magic dust when we speak to them as well. That's a way of us talking to people. We've had communications with the High Sheriff of Cumbria and stuff.  

Trina: I think the other thing I'd say as well is when we did the presentation, you know we did the presentation, didn't we, for Research in Practice? I think that other people provided magic dust, particularly for Wayne and Diane. It was such a lovely response to have that number of people, and people who were in the social work profession as well that wanted to listen and were interested. I think that felt like you got some magic dust from that yourselves.  

Julie: I think it's amazing what you do, that you actually put yourselves into those positions when you've both said about your anxiety but that you are putting yourself forward to spread that message and to spread that magic dust, and that is really a credit to both of you that you're able to overcome those anxieties to do that.  

Wayne: Yes.  

Diane: But I feel that I wouldn't have been able to do that if it wasn't for the work that I have had, and also it's not just the work that people have helped with, it's I've done the work as well. So, as well as being grateful to Love Barrow Families for all their help and support that they have given me over the years, do you know what, I'm actually really proud of myself because I've done it. I just think that if I can make one person smile a day or I can help one person a day then that's my life, that's my day happy, that's what I'm here for. I'm here to help people.  

[Being kind and genuine] 

Julie: That's amazing that, you've taken that help but then now you're moving forward with it yourselves and you've got the motivation and the energy yourselves to be doing things for yourself. Like, you don't necessarily need that same kind of hand holding that you perhaps did at the beginning.  

Wayne: Do you know, just something I've picked up on there. I've had no training, right? But the fact is I can help so many people throughout the life that I'm living now. So, it's not the fact that you need training, you just have to act kind, you have to be, obviously, nice to people. Just be, obviously, genuine to people in general, do you know? Listen to people, open, just take a bit of consideration into somebody's past or what they need help with, and I think that's what it's down to.  

Julie: Being nice to people, wouldn't it be a lovely world if everyone was nice to everybody else? We would be living in a lovely world.  

Trina: I think the genuine, being genuine is really important because I'm really interested still in knowing what it was that we did at Love Barrow Families, the detail of what we did, that made a difference. One of the things I think is humility and being real and being a person and bringing your whole self. I think that's important. It's a challenge as well. But yes, I think that's a key thing not to miss really.  

Julie: What do you mean by bringing your self, can you explain that?  

Trina: I think when we're genuine what I think of as genuine is that I was me, I was me with Wayne and I was me with Diane. I was a social worker and I had all of that and all of that knowledge and experience and stuff that I had. I think when I was younger I was more of a professional, if you like, and less of who I was. As I've got older I've learnt and I've become more confident I guess in the value of being who I am. It's that genuine, it's that being a real person. People know, I guess that's what it is, they actually-, you know, Wayne, Diane, all the other people, all the other Wayne and Dianes-, they actually know when they're looking into your eyes whether you're genuine or not. Does that answer your question?  

Julie: Yes, yes.  

Wayne: Can I just go off that? It just clicked then when you said that, because when you came into the jail you were acting as a professional, I know that, because you were coming in to do a job, but you were a normal person, asking me to answer your questions of what I was going, 'What do you want to do? Do you want to change this situation? Do you want to become a part of it?' Do you know what, I actually feel it then. They were just normal people coming to see me in jail but doing a professional job.  

Julie: Yes, so that relationship?  

Wayne: Yes, yes. It just clicked that when she was saying that, and I'm just seeing the vision of them sat down in the jail and talking to me. You just didn't act like a-, like, you were doing a job while you were there but it felt like they were normal people asking me to become a part of something.  

Julie: Yes, and that looking in the eye, again that's, like, really, really important isn't it?  

Wayne: Yes.  

[What can others do to offer support that is genuine and kind?] 

Julie: So, it's been really, really interesting and there's a lot of really-, so much that I've learnt from speaking to you and that I think other people can learn around kindness and being nice and all those kinds of things. That's my views on it, but what I'm now interested to hear from both of you, and maybe I'll start with you, Diane, and then move over to you, Wayne, is what do you think the five key things that other workers can do to offer a service and offer support that has this humility and humanity at its heart?  

Diane: Honesty would be my first one. Yes, all families, all they want is honesty. Like, that is important, I think, to me, and I think it was the one thing that Love Barrow Families would give me. If I was messing up they'd tell me, and if I was doing good they'd tell me. So, I think honesty is the main one for me. Non-judgemental. I know people have to judge and I know social workers have to judge to be able to do their assessments, but do it in a kind way. Like, you don't have to make the parent feel ashamed of their past. Because I've had social workers making me ashamed of my past, and do you know what, that says more about them than it does me because I shouldn't ever be judged on my past. I've made mistakes and I hold my hands up to them but everybody should be given a second chance I think and you shouldn't be judged on your past, because people can change. I know the saying is, 'A leopard never changes its spots,' but people can change. Compassion is another one, another word that comes to mind. Like, there's a lot of compassion in Love Barrow Families.  

Julie: We've got three, we might even make it beyond the five. Do you have anything to add to those, Wayne?  

Wayne: Accepting other people's lifestyles. Relationship building. Giving individuals opportunities. Talking to someone in confidence, definitely. Being a part of something, a team, a family. Just being actually a part of something, that's the biggest part for me that I'd say I've never had in my life. I've always been a solo person where I'd not really want people around me but I'd just use people around me that I need for that day or whatever, so as I was accepted by Love Barrow Families it was different. Once I found out that I could be a part of something I thrived off it. It's definitely been a part of something that I've thrived off.  

Julie: Excellent.  

Diane: Having faith. Like, the one thing that Love Barrow Families did was had faith in us. When we turned round and we used to say, especially me, I used to go, 'Oh, I can't do that. No chance can I do that. I can't do that, because I'm me, I can't do that, no, that's above me,' but having faith. So, one thing that Trina had faith in was that I could do different things and I could-, so, I'm trying to think how to word it. So, Trina used to know that I like learning, and that might sound strange because I hated school, but I absolutely love learning. So, Trina used to give me courses to do because 1) she knew I could do them, and 2) because she had faith in me that it would help me better myself.  

Trina: These two have taught me something about that as well because we didn't really know how to do that. It's like capacity building or finding the next little step that people can take in their lives to make a difference, that was something that we learned about, it wasn't something that we set off doing. So, to hear the difference it's made is really nice. Because I think one of the things that we were very keen to do was to not push people beyond what they were capable of, and that's another reason why things like the adult attachment assessments were important because it really is about each unique person finding their next tiny little step that they can manage. So, it's pushing a little bit but not so far that they end up failing and feeling worse. The other thing I was thinking about was the original things that families said, the original families that helped us set up Love Barrow Families is very similar to what we've been talking about. They were-, they wanted a joined-up service so that they didn't have to go to lots of different people and lots of different services.  

Diane: It's all under one roof.  

Trina: Yes. They didn't want to live in fear of having their children taken away, and so there was something there, because when we unpicked it, about honesty and really understanding properly what it was that they were being asked to do. They talked about wanting support as soon as they asked for it, at a low level, before it hits the child protection radar. Having compassion and kindness and one person who could co-ordinate services. Just they were the things that the original families said and I think they probably still hold true.  

Diane: I've also written down 'no children', right? Because this was a big part of me understanding me. So, after doing a lot of the work with Love Barrow Families I realised that social workers that didn't have children that were trying to tell me how to parent I struggled with. Now, I now realise that for me it's, I connect better, and it's all about, and I do think social workers should connect with the families. So, for me having a social worker that didn't have children I was, like, 'No. You're not telling me how to raise my children because you don't have children, so how would you know because you're just reading it from a textbook?' But then I met social workers that did have children and I clicked with them because I knew that they had understanding. So, it's not just Alison and Trina that have helped me, we actually had a lovely student social worker when I was really needing help and support and she was called Sarah, and she was lovely, and she's still now part of my life. So, it does feel like Love Barrow Families is part of my family because I've met so many nice people from there. I think some of the families have had major struggles but I think that social workers need to understand families and they're not just a number, they're a person. So, that is my message to trainee social workers to people that want to change and become better would be don't treat people as a number, treat them as a person.  

Julie: Yes. That being able to click with somebody and that chemistry, I guess, isn't it in a way, is really, really important because we often hear the term 'not engaging' which is not a nice term at all and I don't think should be used, but quite often if you find that right person that you can connect, that you do click with, then that can make such a difference, be they a social worker, a family support worker, whatever kind of worker or person that they are it's finding that person to connect with and click with. Any you're not always going to click with everybody and that's a fact of life. Well, it's been absolutely wonderful speaking to the three of you. Is there anything else that anyone wants to say?  

Wayne: No, it's been lovely speaking to you and giving obviously my side of the story.  

Diane: And also I would like to say something to all the people that were at the Research in Practice for Children and Families. So, if any of them are listening to this on behalf of myself and Wayne we would like to say thank you for all the lovely comments because, being a service user, you don't normally get a lot of praise and good feedback, so that kind of made us feel good. So, thank you to any of you that are actually listening that said something nice that day. So, thank you.  

Julie: That's a really, really nice to say, Diane, and I'm sure they'll be delighted with that comment, and I think it's a really lovely way to end this podcast on a very, very positive note about the shared learning for everybody and about the importance of listening.  

[Outro] 

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